Tuesday, September 17, 2013

Celibacy and the Catholic Church (part 1)


Menachem Mevashir/Michael Korn responded to my previous post in the comments section of this blog. I will now address some of the issues which he brought up and offer my own analysis of the discussion at hand.
rabbi Chaim the Small,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
I am glad you survived the rigors of the fasting and were able to give your attention to this important point.
Of course I realize that Moses was married and sired children prior to the command to him to separate from his wife. But the point I am making is that such separation was necessary for him to attain the highest level of spirituality in order to redeem his people from bondage. On that I am certain you can agree.
Actually, I don’t agree with what you wrote. You write that separating from his wife was necessary for him to attain the highest level of spirituality in order to redeem his people from bondage, but that is simply not true. In fact, Moses only separated from his wife after he had already led the Jews on their Exodus from Egypt and only after he served as the main conduit of HaShem’s will at the Revelation at Mount Sinai, not beforehand. His so-called “celibacy” was not necessary for him to reach his level, it was an outcome of the fact that he had reached his high level like I have already explained to you in my previous post.
Jesus and St. Paul also spoke about those who make themselves celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. These people are not sexless or neutered, but rather are able to embrace a much larger family unit in Divine Love due to their celibacy, which perhaps more accurately could be termed chastity. That was all I wished to apply to my Christian friends: for them to understand that indeed there is precedent in Judaism to praise the virtues of chastity and celibacy.
Indeed, chastity is a virtue. Chastity means preserving one’s sexual innocence when outside the context of a permitted marriage in order to use their sexuality in such a context. Chastity is something to be admired. It requires one to only engage in allowed sexual conduct, but it obviously presumes the existence of permitted sexual relations. Celibacy, on the other hand, whereby one vows to never engage in sexual expression, is simply a dream. The very idea denies the truism of what it means to be human. It seeks a standard which for almost everyone is unattainable and almost intrinsically condones and excuses unchaste behavior. I will repeat clearer what I have already stated: Any man who claims to be “celibate” is either unhealthy (physically and/or mentally) or lying.
So far as your comment about Jeremiah, I have no idea what you mean. See here for example.
I was proving to you that Jeremiah was not celibate. He in fact had a daughter. Your example from Jeremiah 16 proves nothing about Jeremiah’s celibacy. It simply shows that HaShem told Jeremiah not to marry and have children while he was in Anatot.
It also is obvious that celibacy is not the norm and is a rare spiritual gift. The point is not to force it upon anyone but rather to help people recognize its blessedness.
There is not such thing as a “spiritual gift”. High levels of spirituality are not given to people as “gifts”, they are attained through hard work in perfecting their character traits, studying and keeping the Torah, and maintaining a close relationship with HaShem based on both fear and love.
And certainly our estimation of Jesus as God's Son and Divine Redeemer makes it totally understandable that celibacy is an appropriate and expected way of life for Him.
On the contrary, according to your Christian fairytales, the bastard of Bethlehem was really a son of “god” because “god” had impregnated Mary. From here we see that “god” himself does not adhere to the standards of celibacy preached by the church because “god” himself impregnated a woman. In fact, he impregnated a marry women! Not only does the Christian god not believe in celibacy, he actually engaged in adultery. No wonder Christianity is such a corrupt and debauched religion.
Likewise for St. Paul, whose commission to remove pagan idolatry from the Roman Empire and to travel perhaps 20,00 miles in arduous missions journeys also makes celbacy a necessary concomitant to his spiritual calling. (Indeed I have often wondered if rabbi Shlomo Carlebach would not have had a much more successful and less controversial and morally compromised ministry if he too had embraced celibacy, but unfortunately Judaism has renounced this high idea!)
Again, the exact opposite of what you are saying is true. As is readily evident, when one is busy travelling and is in “foreign” territory and situations, his sexual urges peak. This is clearly seen from the Torah allowing one to engage with a “woman of beautiful form” should he chance upon such a lady when at war (see Deut. 21:10-15). When one is away from home, his sexual desires become stronger. Accordingly, celibacy would only be more difficult in such a situation. In fact, if Paul really did travel the world to try and dissuade pagans from their religion, he probably took his wife with him, or had multiple wives in different cities, or engaged in “call girls” and the like to fulfill his sexual appetite. (And that’s if we judge Paul favorably and assume that he did not engaged in illicit sexual practices such as masturbation, pedophilia, homosexuality and the like).
The same is true with Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach. Because he was constantly travelling around the world to preach his message. I don’t know if he took his with wife him on these music tours, but even if he did, the mere opportunity to meet so many different types of places and people (many of them vulnerable and looking for spirituality and companionship) probably gave Rabbi Carlebach a very difficult time trying to preserve his sexual innocence for permitted venues. A wife is not always a foolproof way of satiating one’s sexual appetite. Sometimes sexual relations with one’s wife is also prohibited (e.g. if she is menstruating or if she just gave birth as well as on Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av and several other days of the year according to Kabbalah). Had Rabbi Carlebach attempted celibacy in his situation, he probably would have been worse off and his sexual crimes and misdeed could have potentially been more heinous. In fact, even the great sages of the Talmud did not trust themselves to act properly when situations could potentially arise whereby they would be in a situation of great sexual anxiety such as travelling. Their response was not to engage in celibacy, that would be foolish and would only serve to exacerbate the situation. Instead, the Talmud relates that several sages would arrange to have “local temporary wives” for the duration of their visit to various places in order to combat their sexual impulses (see Yevamoth 37b, Yoma 18b and other places). Celibacy simply does not work for human beings.
Regarding your allegation about the "bastard from Bethlehem" I urge you to watch these shows on the Holy Shroud of Turin which present scientifically verifiable evidence for Christ's crucifixion and resurrection:
The Real Face of Jesus From the Shroud of Turin
The Lost 40 Days of Jesus - Full Documentary
May God illuminate your eyes with His Holy Truth and pull away the veil from upon your mind and the stone from within your heart.
Mevashir
I don’t watch videos. Do these videos say anything intelligent or are they simply the same Christian propaganda that has been spread for hundreds of years in Audio/Visual format?

PS Please do not hesitate to respond to all the Cc list. These people are both Jewish and Christian scholars with a deep respect for Jewish roots in order to understand the life and works of Jesus. They will be most grateful to interact with an Orthodox Jewish scholar of your eminence. Indeed when I was at Ohr Samayach in the 1980s, a number of my instructors were associated with the Mirrer Yeshiva (eg Avraham Rockmill), so truly it is an honor and privilege to communicate with a scholar from that most famous of yeshivas! But from this point forward I will try to post directly to your blog, beseder???
I definitely do hesitate to respond to all the members of your CC list. Many of them are on your blacklist against their will. Ever since you decided to add me to your list, I have seen many people who requested that you remove them from the list (from some reason they click reply all instead of just reply), but you hesitated to do so and delayed doing so (although, granted, it seems that eventually you do remove them from your list).
PPS Your answer to my question about whether God would raise from the dead an evil man in order to test Jews is truly sobering:
<< BEGIN QUOTE>> I do not find it problematic to say that HaShem would stage a massive deception and corruption of His own Torah in order to test the strength of the Jews' commitment to it. We have seen this countless times throughout history. The entire creation of the state of Israel and Zionism (according to the Satmar Rebbe) is a test by HaShem to see who will remain faithful to His Torah and who will stray from it. The same is true of the horrors of the Holocaust, the intellectual draw of the Haskala movement, and many other such instances (many of which have long been forgotten). HaShem enjoys giving extra credit to those who are faithful to Him, the way to achieve extra credit is by passing His tests. Life is full of such tests some bigger some smaller. They are all chances for one to prove his steadfast commitment to the Torah and Judaism and gain greater reward in the Heavens. <<END QUOTE>>
It raises the question of whether we can ever trust God to speak to us via signs and miracles in order to shatter our complacent existences! I am well aware of the warnings of Deuteronomy 13 and 17 about false prophets who perform signs and wonders which also is sobering. But Jesus Himself seems to have addressed this. When accused of using satanic powers to exorcise people (as I believe the Talmud asserts against Him), Yeshua responded saying that personal insults against Him can be forgiven (such as your calling him bastard from Bethlehem) but insults against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, since they blaspheme God's very spirit operating within us! Jesus also explains that satan would not exorcise people thereby dividing and weakening his own wicked kingdom. But this raises the very question you pose from Deuteronomy about a false prophet displaying signs and wonders that we are meant to disregard. How can we reconcile this?
Perhaps the answer is that the false prophet displaying signs and wonders of whom Deuteronomy warns us does not help people at all. Rather he might do what Isaiah did to demonstrate a sign to King Hezekiah: turn back the sundial. But Yeshua seems to be saying that any act of genuine love and compassion such as releasing a person from demonic oppression, cannot possibly be an act of satanic deception! And furthermore He warns us that anyone who claims so is guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit! See here:
(quotes from the so-called “New Testament” truncated)
Could one have argued that Moses' splitting of the Red Sea and indeed performing all the miracles associated with the Exodus were deceptions, since he was leading the people out of the wilderness 190 years too early according to some calculations? How about all the signs and wonders Moses performed? Were these too deceptions? Furthermore, you seem to ignore the fact that you cannot fulfill the Law properly, that most of the commandments are null and void today, and that even the ones you do perform are riddled with hypocrisy and inconsistency.
For example, let's say you have $1000 to spend any way you wish. How should you allocate it? Should you upgrade your tefillin and mezuzot (assuming you are blessed to have a home)? Should you buy an extra set of tefillin like rabbeinu Tam? or perhaps three extra sets as Moshe Sternbuch is reputed to do? Should you buy Torah commentaries? Spend money on your wife and children? Give tzeddaka to a yeshiva? To a hospital? To hachnassat kala? To feed the poor? You see the problem: since your religion is based totally on works without faith in the sacrifice of Yeshua as atonement for the world, then you are faced with a hopeless task of sorting through innumerable possibilities without any certainty of what is the right decision!
Another example: the Talmud teaches that the chassidim rishonim would pray nine hours per day: three hours for each of the three prayers. But in shuls today, most people rush through Shacharit in perhaps 30 minutes and then run off to get to work, kollel, or whatever. Now why can't a person say If it is more righteous and pious to pray longer and with more attention, then I will prolong my prayers and trust God to make up the lost salary! This is an obvious idea based on the Talmud extoling the faith of these people, yet hardly anyone does this. Instead they rush through their prayers in what I call Fax Machine Dovening, spewing words out with little attention, and then rush off to pursue their secular careers. Who says this is what God wishes? Who says He even accepts it?
We who follow Jesus can trust that the Holy Spirit He sent to us will stir our emotions and thoughts to do the right thing which we discern through prayer and contemplation. But you who do all based on works or righteousness are faced with a hopeless task of trying to weigh an infinitude of halachic and Talmudic possibilities and choices with no assurance you are making the right choice. You in the end are like the Moslems, who after all their fervent religious devotions have zero certainty they are fulfilling Allah's will or that they will get to Heaven. How dreary and discouraging!
What you are saying is true that there is not one right decision in Judaism. But the truth is that different people have different abilities and inclinations and no two people tick the same. Your examples about the proper way of spending excess money and the proper way of engaging in prayer are good examples of this. Different people have different ways of expressing their servitude of the HaShem. רחמנא ליבא בעי. אחד המרבה ואחד הממעיט ובלבד שיכוון לבו לאבינו שבשמים. These concepts tell us that HaShem does not want quantity, He wants quality. Even when a person acts within the confines of Torah Judaism, there are still many personal and private choices which need to be made and there is not general right-or-wrong answer for everyone. Judaism is not a one-size-fits-all religion. There are various different strains of legitimate Judaism with each one focusing on a different facet of serving HaShem (even if sometimes their concentration on their focii are a cause in some laxity in other areas, as long as they don’t systematically and purposefully abandon one area of the Torah). For example, Chassidim may focus more on serving HaShem through prayer and immersion in the Mikva, while Misnagdim focus more on serving HaShem through Torah study and intellectual pursuits, Centrist/Modern Orthodox people may focus more on serving HaShem through perfection of their interhuman relations, Sephardic people might focus serving HaShem through Kabbalah, etc… All of these are legitimate answers and legitimate options, as long as one stays within the confines of Judaism.
Christianity’s dogma essentially states “If you believe, then you’re okay, if you don’t believe, then you are going to hell” and doesn’t require much beyond that. Judaism (like Islam but even more than Islam) requires its adherents to actually do something. Judaism is not a religion of dogma, it is a religion of action. HaShem does not want Jews to “just believe” to get into Gan Eden. He expects a Jew to act and live like a Jew, not just believe like a Jew. There are no “credit cards” in Heaven, if you deserve reward, you deserve reward, if you deserve punishment, you deserve punishment. HaShem weighs people’s actions and judges if they are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. In Christianity, you can do whatever you want as long as you “believe”. You can be a pope and father scores of illegitimate children through your papal harem, yet Christians will still view you as the holiest man alive. In Judaism, your status is dependent on your actions, not just your beliefs.

I recognize that it is unlikely that you will be able to admit your admiration for Jesus especially publicly.
This is a logical fallacy (it is similar to a complex question) because you assuming something with is simply not true and then justifying my silence regarding said assumption.
I was able to become His follower only after many years of suffering, in which I lost my marriage and was basically a nomad within the world of Orthodox Judaism. The Messianic teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov also prepared my heart to embrace the truth of Yeshua. I realize I was in a unique position to accept Jesus with minimal embarrassment or sacrifice vis a vis the rest of the Orthodox Jewish community.
So my goals with you are humble. I just hope to jog your mind and spirit a bit and help you see Yeshua in a different light than 2000 years of rabbinical animosity would normally permit. Start perhaps with this article from Roi Tov, a former IDF officer who has become a follower of Yeshua: True Faith in the Word Notzri!
Thanks again for your willingness to correspond and for the long and thoughtful response you formulated.
Shalom baShem Yeshua,
If your goal is to change my view about the bastard of Bethlehem, then the exact opposite has occurred. You have only once again proven to me that the bastard and his followers are simply mindless irrational drones who repeat the same drivel for hundreds of years without bothering to think about what they are saying and even address the many works which have already answered their unfounded claims. You have once again shown that Christianity only cares about drawing members away from other religion so that they can swell in popularity and influence. The bastard himself (if he really existed) already tried to dissuade Jews from the Torah and was largely unsuccessful. His efforts were continued by several of his students and eventually the mission was taken up by the early Church which tried several other tactics.
I sympathize that you were in an unfortunate situation as a sort of pariah within the Jewish Orthodox community and that Christian missionaries saw a good opportunity in you to proselytize another Jew (as they have been wont to do for centuries) and therefore took advantage of your poor situation to transform you into one of their mindless drones spewing their anti-Jewish faith to the masses. This lowers my opinion of Christians more than before.   
In another comment to post Mr. Korn writes:
I have no thought that Moshe would engage in masturbation, God forbid. It never occurred to me and I wonder why you would imagine so. I never posed this question to you in my initial email either. Perhaps you are projecting or protesting too much?
I never said that you asked that Moses would engaged in mastrubation. I was simply answering the unspoken question that if the point Moses’ “celibacy” was to maintain a high degree of ritual purity, then it is not necessarily foolproof because sometimes nocturnal emissions of semen do occur when one is sleeping and that would render him impure. My answer is that since Moses was “in control” of himself, he did not have these lapses of sexual expressions which occur naturally to most human beings. I admit that my wording on this point was unclear there.

I do not believe that all Catholic priests are unchaste. Or Catholic nuns or monks either. I imagine a small minority of them engage in unchaste activities.
And perhaps you should contemplate the sobering reality of rampant sexual abuse within Orthodox Jewish society, as this website somberly attests: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/
Why do you suppose all these happily married rabbis are molesting young yeshiva boys? Clearly marriage in itself is no assurance against sexual depravity.
When I lived in Israel I read an article that claimed close to half the clients of the many prostitutes who have proliferated throughout the unHoly Land are Orthodox Jewish men!
Clearly your community is in great need of spiritual deliverance, and you have zero cause for smugness or complacency!
As our Lord taught:
(quotations from the so-called “New Testament” truncated)
Here are the unhappy and sobering sex abuse links:
Please note that in the previous link about sex abuse in the Orthodox community, there are over 10,000 reports! This is a community in deep need of spiritual deliverance that only Jesus Christ can provide! May you have the wisdom and humility to seek His help!
I do not believe that all Catholics priests are unchaste either, but certainly the overwhelmingly majority of them are. Of those priests who have taken an oath of celibacy, only those who are truly mentally or physically impotent are able to keep their oath. The others have a little something(s) on the side and with that release their sexual frustrations, as I mentioned before. You are right that marriage itself is no assurance against sexual depravity, but attempting celibacy is almost certainly an assurance for sexual depravity. If even happily married men have sexual desires which have to be fulfilled and lead them to committing horrid sexual crimes in order to abate their desires, then certainly one who is not happily married will have even more difficulty keeping his sexual desires in check. Marriage is not an assurance against sexual depravity, but it certainly helps the situation, as opposed to taking an oath of celibacy which not only does not help, but it actually hurts. Everyone has tests which HaShem expects them to overcome and doing certain things can make those tests easier or harder. For example, for someone who has the test of a strong desire for pedophilia, it is a good idea for him to get married to help him deal with his test better rather than to try and remain celibate and end up stumbling with the altar boys and the like. Everyone has different types of tests from Heaven, some people pass those tests and some people fail them; I don’t see that sexual crimes is more prevalent in the Orthodox Jewish community than it is in other communities. Every community has its individuals who do not fare with HaShem’s tests and indeed it takes wisdom and humility to seek His help! (The website to which you referred me is blocked on my web filter on suspicion that it contains pornography and profanity.)
In another comment to the previous post he tries the old virgin birth shtick with me. He writes:
rabbi Chaim the Small,
In our bible study tonight we discussed the Virgin Birth of Jesus to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I'd like to ask you about Rashi's comment to Isaiah 7:14 which Christians believe alludes to the birth of Christ to a virgin.
You can see the Rashi at this link on the chabad website:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15938#v=14&showrashi=true
Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. [[And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.]]
Please note the second part of Rashi in the section marked with [[ ]].
Can you explain why Jews find this miracle of a pre adolescent girl falling pregnant and giving birth more plausible than the New Testament account of Jesus' birth to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was a mature woman and betrothed in marriage?
Indeed, if a girl were too young to give birth, what Jew would marry her? Aren't marital relations forbidden if a girl has not yet reached puberty?
Thanks for clarifying. I feel that Rashi is alluding to a miracle like that reported in the New Testament, but not quite as plausible or reasonable.
Blessings to you for your erudite response.
Much ink has been spilled debunking again and again the legend of Mary the prostitute, I will not delve into this topic. I will, however, note that there is not prohibition barring a Jew from marrying a girl who has not yet reached puberty. You must understand the social context of those times and it was quite widespread and accepted for men to marry pre-pubescent girls even though they cannot become pregnant.
When Mr. Korn sent his lengthy responses to my previous post to his mass mailing list, one of his “groupies” asked him why he is so busy with trying to delegitimize Judaism. Here is a copy of their email correspondence along with his answer:
-----Original Message-----
From: JoAn Karkos <joan.karkos@gmail.com>
To: Menachem Mevashir <mevashir@aol.com>
Cc: a whole bunch of people
Sent: Mon, Sep 16, 2013 11:54 am
Subject: Re: Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi on Moses' Black Wife and Celibacy
Why are you so focused upon Judaism that does not have the fullness of the truth and denies the Crucified Christ and Resurrection?​
---------- Original message ----------
From: Menachem Mevashir <mevashir@aol.com>
Date: Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi on Moses' Black Wife and Celibacy
To: joan.karkos@gmail.com
Cc: a whole bunch of people
They are my people and my mission field.
I do not want to be like the Catholic priest from India who boasted that of the millions of Hindus who attend Catholic schools, not a single one has converted to Christianity!!!
Menachem Mevashir
mevashir@aol.com
And so the true nature of Mr. Korn is revealed by Mr. Korn himself—he wants to convert all the Jews to Christianity. He is not interested in debating and having intelligent discussions of Biblical history and theology, he has already made up his mind in what he believes to be the truth, he is simply using debate as a forum for spreading the religion of the bastard from Bethlehem. In fact, according to my sources from Ohr Somayach, Mr. Korn was already a member of Jews for Jesus when he was studying at Ohr Somayach and his entire purpose of studying there, it seems, was simply to sway other Jews from the proper path. Furthermore, his attempts at defaming the well-respected late Rabbi Nachman Bulman only serve to strengthen the idea that he is not really trying to search for the truth, rather he is attempting to hide from it and conceal it.

31 comments:

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(1/5)

Celibacy and the Catholic Church

Thanks again for responding. See below in response to [[your comments]]:


[[Actually, I don’t agree with what you wrote. You write that separating from his wife was necessary for him to attain the highest level of spirituality in order to redeem his people from bondage, but that is simply not true. In fact, Moses only separated from his wife after he had already led the Jews on their Exodus from Egypt and only after he served as the main conduit of HaShem’s will at the Revelation at Mount Sinai, not beforehand. His so-called “celibacy” was not necessary for him to reach his level, it was an outcome of the fact that he had reached his high level like I have already explained to you in my previous post.]]

Even without Rabbi Nachman's chiddush about the true meaning of shal na'alecha ma'al reglecha as referring to prishut min ishto, one can calculate very clearly from Torah chronology that from the time of the burning bush Moshe never slept with Tzippora again. They started out traveling together to Egypt, but after she saved his life from the serpent, he sent her back to Midian. Then when Jethro returned with her after Kriyat Yam Suf Moshe was busy preparing the people for the Mt. Sinai revelation, so it is certain Tzippora was not with him during the Exodus events out of Egypt and reasonable to assume she did not live with him during the Omer period leading up to Matan Torah at Mt. Sinai, which was the culmination and purpose of the Exodus from Egypt. This is even more certain according to the opinion that Jethro and Tzippora did not come to Sinai until after Matan Torah!

I realize you have an ideological desire to pretend that Moshe was holy enough to invoke the miracles of the Exodus and to confront the Evil Mouthed Pharaoh (Pe Ra) and the initial stages of wilderness wanderings still cohabiting with his wife, but you have made a grave error that even a child who is familiar with the story of the Exodus would recognize. If your dissembling is not deliberate, then frankly I am shocked at your naivette. Perhaps you should study Talmud less and Torah more.


[[Indeed, chastity is a virtue. Chastity means preserving one’s sexual innocence when outside the context of a permitted marriage in order to use their sexuality in such a context. Chastity is something to be admired. It requires one to only engage in allowed sexual conduct, but it obviously presumes the existence of permitted sexual relations. Celibacy, on the other hand, whereby one vows to never engage in sexual expression, is simply a dream.]]

Thank you for affirming the blessedness of chastity. As for celibacy, you are right that for an unbeliever in Yeshua who has not yet surrendered his life to the Divine Messiah, it would be a pointless dream. But sometimes our dreams lead us to our reality, if we desire the vision of hope the Holy Spirit has planted within us. So for now forget about celibacy, since so long as you resist the Holy Spirit as manifested in God's Son, you cannot possibly recognize its validity or legitimacy or even feasibility. As Yeshua said: What is impossible for man is possible with God.


[[There is not such thing as a “spiritual gift”. High levels of spirituality are not given to people as “gifts”, they are attained through hard work in perfecting their character traits, studying and keeping the Torah, and maintaining a close relationship with HaShem based on both fear and love.]]

We can agree partially. We believe that the new birth through Jesus Christ brings us to the point where we can then follow His advice about sanctification. But no spiritual progress can be made without first surrendering ourselves to Him. Just as no Jew can partake in the customs of the Jewish liturgical year without first eating of the Qorban Pesach. Jesus is the starting point, but it is not an easy road. He speaks of the narrow gate through which we must endeavor to pass. But He also tells us: "My yoke is easy and My burden light."

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(2/5)

[[On the contrary, according to your Christian fairytales, the bastard of Bethlehem was really a son of “god” because “god” had impregnated Mary. From here we see that “god” himself does not adhere to the standards of celibacy preached by the church because “god” himself impregnated a woman. In fact, he impregnated a married women! Not only does the Christian god not believe in celibacy, he actually engaged in adultery. No wonder Christianity is such a corrupt and debauched religion.]]

I thought Jews believe that in every marital union and pregnancy there are three parties: husband wife and Holy Spirit? Don't you claim that all sexual unions are simply a conduit to bring down a godly soul from Heaven into the conceived child? Isn't this the Jewish ideal of being fruitful and multiplying? Doesn't Rashi say in Parashat Bala'am that God sifts through every drop of semen emitted in holy sexual union to find the seed that will produce Messiah? If God chooses to impregnate a woman without a male union, how is that "adultery", especially since God chose a woman who was betrothed and thus legally married in every sense of the word even requiring a Get of divorce to end the union! I fail to see why you would consider this an act of vulgarity.


[[Again, the exact opposite of what you are saying is true. As is readily evident, when one is busy travelling and is in “foreign” territory and situations, his sexual urges peak. This is clearly seen from the Torah allowing one to engage with a “woman of beautiful form” should he chance upon such a lady when at war (see Deut. 21:10-15). When one is away from home, his sexual desires become stronger. Accordingly, celibacy would only be more difficult in such a situation. In fact, if Paul really did travel the world to try and dissuade pagans from their religion, he probably took his wife with him, or had multiple wives in different cities, or engaged in “call girls” and the like to fulfill his sexual appetite. (And that’s if we judge Paul favorably and assume that he did not engaged in illicit sexual practices such as masturbation, pedophilia, homosexuality and the like).]]

Thanks for judging Paul favorably. I meant to write that scholars estimate he travelled 20,000 miles by foot, not 2,000. There is no way he would take a woman on such arduous and perilous journeys, especially since his life was constantly at risk. Paul loved and respected women enough to desire their safety and not simply to use them as a release for his own selfish sexual desires.

Your point about Isha Yafat To'ar is interesting, but it again is not the norm. The Sages say it is not a recommended course of action but a concession to fallen human nature which in the heat of war is easily aroused to sexual defilement. But St. Paul walked in the Holy Spirit and spoke of the fruit of the spirit all believers can enjoy; Love Joy Peace Patience Kindness Goodness Faithfulness Gentleness Self-Control. They are gifts from Yeshua to all who trust in Him.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(3/6)

[[Celibacy simply does not work for human beings.]]

Granted it does not work for fallen human beings with Adam's inherited sin nature. It does work and is a blessed gift for those reborn of the Holy Spirit emanating from Yeshua.


[[I don’t watch videos. Do these videos say anything intelligent or are they simply the same Christian propaganda that has been spread for hundreds of years in Audio/Visual format?]]

The videos present detailed scientific studies of the Holy Shroud of Turin using the latest technologies that show that its image is totally inexplicable according to the standard detraction claiming it is an artistic forgery. I can understand your skepticism but it really is astounding. One of the foremost experts on the Shroud is Barrie Schwortz, who is a respected Jewish professional photographer. He is not a Christian; yet he insists the Shroud defies all attempts to explain it away and appears to present real and visceral evidence for the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. If so it perfectly completes the entirety of biblical history, since the very first action God took to deal with the sin of Adam and Eve was to make them skins to cover their shame. The Shroud is the last article of clothing on which God's Final Solution to the problem of human sin and rebellion is recorded.

I should explain that Barrie Schwortz himself will not make these kinds of theological assertions about the Shroud. He is content to present the case for the Shroud's scientifically inexplicable authenticity. No one in fact knows what his religious beliefs are. If you would prefer to contact him directly rather than view the videos, that feature scientists from the US Air Force Academy and many others, then his information is here:
bschwortz@shroud.com - http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm#menu




[[I definitely do hesitate to respond to all the members of your CC list. Many of them are on your blacklist against their will. Ever since you decided to add me to your list, I have seen many people who requested that you remove them from the list (from some reason they click reply all instead of just reply), but you hesitated to do so and delayed doing so (although, granted, it seems that eventually you do remove them from your list).]]

I have removed them from our conversation and also have directed them to your blog. I apologize for intimidating you. They are people with whom I have had many religious dialogues and also are fascinated by Jewish rabbinical teachings. I thought they would enjoy interacting with you, but I think many of them are grieved at the animosity they think I have provoked in you. For example they blame me for inciting you to write "bastard of Bethlehem" and think you would be better of spiritually had I never bothered to write to you in the first place, according to the principle that it is better to oppose Jesus silently than actively openly and audibly. If I have provoked your animosity to Jesus I apologize.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(4/6)

[[What you are saying is true that there is not one right decision in Judaism. But the truth is that different people have different abilities and inclinations and no two people tick the same. Your examples about the proper way of spending excess money and the proper way of engaging in prayer are good examples of this. Different people have different ways of expressing their servitude of the HaShem. רחמנא ליבא בעי. אחד המרבה ואחד הממעיט ובלבד שיכוון לבו לאבינו שבשמים. These concepts tell us that HaShem does not want quantity, He wants quality. Even when a person acts within the confines of Torah Judaism, there are still many personal and private choices which need to be made and there is not general right-or-wrong answer for everyone. Judaism is not a one-size-fits-all religion. There are various different strains of legitimate Judaism with each one focusing on a different facet of serving HaShem (even if sometimes their concentration on their focii are a cause in some laxity in other areas, as long as they don’t systematically and purposefully abandon one area of the Torah). For example, Chassidim may focus more on serving HaShem through prayer and immersion in the Mikva, while Misnagdim focus more on serving HaShem through Torah study and intellectual pursuits, Centrist/Modern Orthodox people may focus more on serving HaShem through perfection of their interhuman relations, Sephardic people might focus serving HaShem through Kabbalah, etc… All of these are legitimate answers and legitimate options, as long as one stays within the confines of Judaism.]]


Thanks for explaining this. If so, then why was there such opposition to Chassidism when it first emerged? And why did so many Chassidim oppose Rabbi Nachman when his approach was revealed? If each approach is tailor made to the unique spiritual qualities of different Jewish people, why were they so cotroversial even to this day among other Jewish groups? Can't one group recognize that its spiritual pathway might not suffice for the needs of other kinds of Jews?



[[Christianity’s dogma essentially states “If you believe, then you’re okay, if you don’t believe, then you are going to hell” and doesn’t require much beyond that.]]

This is a misconception. Christians speak of justification and sanctification. We enter the gate through simple faith in Yeshua's sacrifice, as St. Paul says in Romans 10:9 about confessing with our mouths that Jesus died for our sins and believing in our hearts that He was raised from the dead. But after this entry into God's Family we are expected to pursue the path of sanctification, involving study prayer and acts of loving kindness and charity. Jesus Himself said that many who fancy themselves devotees of Him will be rejected at the gates of Heaven for failing to follow His pathway.


[[Judaism (like Islam but even more than Islam) requires its adherents to actually do something. Judaism is not a religion of dogma, it is a religion of action. HaShem does not want Jews to “just believe” to get into Gan Eden. He expects a Jew to act and live like a Jew, not just believe like a Jew.]]

We are the same. Ya'akov head of the Jerusalem Church (who was martyred by Herod) says Faith without works is dead. And the great chapter of faithful Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11 details the actions that confirmed their faithfulness. For example Hebrews says Abraham proved his faith by taking Isaac to Mt. Moriah in obedience to God's command, even though it appeared to contradict God's promise that his descendants would come through Isaac's seedline. We totally agree that faith must be demonstrated via action. But we also insist that action of attempted mitzvah fulfillment without a prior faith in Jesus is meaningless and worthless.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(5/7)

[[There are no “credit cards” in Heaven, if you deserve reward, you deserve reward, if you deserve punishment, you deserve punishment. HaShem weighs people’s actions and judges if they are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. In Christianity, you can do whatever you want as long as you “believe”. You can be a pope and father scores of illegitimate children through your papal harem, yet Christians will still view you as the holiest man alive.]]

No Christian believes that the Borgia Popes were holy men. In fact their corruption helped fuel the Protestant Reformation, as you may be aware. The problem for Catholics of corrupt popes is similar to the problem during Tenach times of corrupt or wicked kings of Judah and Israel. Note that the prophets were sent to such wicked kings, such as Ahab and Menashe to exort them to repent. No one wants to see a violent end even to corrupt kings. It is important for institutional stability to ease such wicked people out of office or into repentance. Pages of ink are spilled in the Tenach of prophets exorting wicked Jewish kings to repentance. All the while respecting the office they occupy.


[[If your goal is to change my view about the bastard of Bethlehem, then the exact opposite has occurred. You have only once again proven to me that the bastard and his followers are simply mindless irrational drones who repeat the same drivel for hundreds of years without bothering to think about what they are saying and even address the many works which have already answered their unfounded claims. You have once again shown that Christianity only cares about drawing members away from other religion so that they can swell in popularity and influence. The bastard himself (if he really existed) already tried to dissuade Jews from the Torah and was largely unsuccessful. His efforts were continued by several of his students and eventually the mission was taken up by the early Church which tried several other tactics.]]

I apologize for exacerbating your hatred of Yeshua and for apparently misrepresenting Him to you. May God send you others to speak the Truth about Him to you in a more persuasive and loving way.

[[I sympathize that you were in an unfortunate situation as a sort of pariah within the Jewish Orthodox community and that Christian missionaries saw a good opportunity in you to proselytize another Jew (as they have been wont to do for centuries) and therefore took advantage of your poor situation to transform you into one of their mindless drones spewing their anti-Jewish faith to the masses. This lowers my opinion of Christians more than before.]]

The Christians did not seek me out. They were living in a community in Tzfat when Orthodox friends asked me to approach them and confront them about their undesired outreach in the community. I met them and was impressed by their love and integrity. They never targetted me and indeed were suspicious about me from the outset. They proved their sincerity to me and demonstrated the love of Yeshua to me.


Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(6/8)

[[I never said that you asked that Moses would engaged in mastrubation. I was simply answering the unspoken question that if the point Moses’ “celibacy” was to maintain a high degree of ritual purity, then it is not necessarily foolproof because sometimes nocturnal emissions of semen do occur when one is sleeping and that would render him impure. My answer is that since Moses was “in control” of himself, he did not have these lapses of sexual expressions which occur naturally to most human beings. I admit that my wording on this point was unclear there.]]

Thanks for clarifying. But again I insist I had no such "unspoken question." I assume it is not that difficult for a man set aside for God at the age of 80 to remain sexually chaste. Perhaps my assumption was naive and I falsely set Moshe on a pedestal he did not deserve.


[[I do not believe that all Catholics priests are unchaste either, but certainly the overwhelmingly majority of them are. Of those priests who have taken an oath of celibacy, only those who are truly mentally or physically impotent are able to keep their oath.
This is pure conjecture on your part. You have no concrete evidence for saying this. Perhaps it is even wishful thinking. Just check out Padre Pio, Edith Stein, Catherine Drexel, and so many many other Catholic religious celibates and saints!




[[Everyone has tests which HaShem expects them to overcome and doing certain things can make those tests easier or harder. For example, for someone who has the test of a strong desire for pedophilia, it is a good idea for him to get married to help him deal with his test better rather than to try and remain celibate and end up stumbling with the altar boys and the like.]]

Even St Paul says this: It is better to marry than to burn with illicit lust. But it is even better to seek the gift of chastity. That's why Catholics say that both marriage and celibate priesthood are sacraments, but the priesthood is greater. Also Catholics considering celibacy are given an opportunity to experience the lifestyle before taking the vow. They are never locked in and never accept it unknowingly.

[[Everyone has different types of tests from Heaven, some people pass those tests and some people fail them; I don’t see that sexual crimes is more prevalent in the Orthodox Jewish community than it is in other communities. Every community has its individuals who do not fare with HaShem’s tests and indeed it takes wisdom and humility to seek His help! (The website to which you referred me is blocked on my web filter on suspicion that it contains pornography and profanity.)]]

So are you saying that even with the Torah to guide them Jews cannot expect to turn out more sanctified than anyone else? This surprises me!

The website is not pornographic. It is run by a former Chabadnik who became disillusioned with what he believes is the failed messianism of the movement and has put up a blog revealing abuses. He himself is still an Orthodox Jew and has blocked me from posting comments on his blog since he too hates Yeshua.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(7/8)



[[I will, however, note that there is not prohibition barring a Jew from marrying a girl who has not yet reached puberty. You must understand the social context of those times and it was quite widespread and accepted for men to marry pre-pubescent girls even though they cannot become pregnant.]]

I thought the Talmud Kabbalah and Chassidism speak of a biyah ra'uyah levlad, that intercourse must be done in a way that could cause impregnation. I do not believe that any self-respecting and God-fearing Jewish parent would allow pre-pubscent daughters to be married and become sexually active, and if they did they should be put in jail for child abuse! I will have to ponder whether I should draw attention to your comment that seems to authorize and encourage sexual depravity within Jewish society, exactly as many anti-Semites charge about Talmudic rationalizations for child molestation and erotic sex with boys, etc..



[[And so the true nature of Mr. Korn is revealed by Mr. Korn himself—he wants to convert all the Jews to Christianity. He is not interested in debating and having intelligent discussions of Biblical history and theology, he has already made up his mind in what he believes to be the truth, he is simply using debate as a forum for spreading the religion of the bastard from Bethlehem.]]

I am very happy you have written to me as much as you have and that despite your antipathy to my beliefs you are willing to engage in a discussion with me. I admit that I am fully committed to Jesus and do not wish to return to Judaism. My main hope in writing to you was to explore Jewish ideals of celibacy as foundational to the ideal of the Catholic celibate priesthood. You clearly do not believe that, and although I believe you are being unnecessarily stubborn and denying the obvious, I shall not pursue this line of inquiry with you.

[[In fact, according to my sources from Ohr Somayach, Mr. Korn was already a member of Jews for Jesus when he was studying at Ohr Somayach and his entire purpose of studying there, it seems, was simply to sway other Jews from the proper path. Furthermore, his attempts at defaming the well-respected late Rabbi Nachman Bulman only serve to strengthen the idea that he is not really trying to search for the truth, rather he is attempting to hide from it and conceal it.]]

I had been exposed to missionaries on Kibbutz Ramat HaShofet prior to my enrolling at Ohr Samayach. I left the kibbutz after Pesach 1983 and spent one month living with rabbi Bulman's community in Migdal HaEmek being introduced to the Orthodox lifestyle. I joined Ohr Samayach after spending Shavuoth with rabbi Bulman's community. I spent a number of months at Ohr Samayach getting "deprogrammed" from the missionaries on the kibbutz by rabbi Shmuel Burstein and also attending the anti-missionary lectures in Jerusalem of Shmuel Golding After six months of this process I had totally washed my hands of Christianity. Over the next three years (until Pesach of 1986) I became one of the best students at Ohr Samayach.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

(8/8)



This rabbi in Chicago was my roommate at Ohr Samayach, and you can write to him about me:
http://motagator.com/Gershon_Seif/?vm=r
https://www.facebook.com/gershon.seif?vm=r

Rabbi Yechezkiel Auerbach of Ohr Samayach in South Africa was my closest rabbi and you can ask him about me too!
http://www.ohr.co.za/contact-us/email-ohr-somayach-glenhazel

I am not sure in what way you think I have defamed rabbi Bulman. Please explain if you can.

Thanks for taking time to look into my background. I am not ashamed and indeed am proud of my accomplishments as a student at Ohr Samayach, studying under eminent rabbis like Aharon Feldman, Naftali Kaplan, Yechezkiel Auerbach, Uziel Milevsky, Mendel Weinbach (whose shu'ir on Katan Harodef I still recall and have used in discussions with Catholics about abortion), and Nosson Schiller.

All this prepared me to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior as the wonderful rabbis at Ohr Samayach showed me the Tenach is true and not fairy tales for children, and they inculcated within me a deep and burning desire for Mashiach, especially rabbi Auerbach who often spoke at our Yeshiva Shabbat meals and almost always discussed Messianic hopes dreams and expectations.

And after I married and joined first Chabad (I met the Lubavitcher rebbe on Gimmel Tammuz 1990, the very day he would die a few years later) and then Breslov and met the amazing Saba Yisrael Odesser, my Messianic yearnings were intensified so that the inevitable disappointment of failed Messianism in Judaism led me to recognize that only Yeshua MiNatzrat could be the genuine Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world.

My hope and prayer is that you too will recognize that Yeshua can only bless you and enhance your life and indeed that all Jewish practices without Him are utterly worthless as St. Paul explains in Philipians 3.

Shalom baShem Yeshua,
Meshicho shel Yisrael waMoshio shel Kol haOlam
ישוע מנצרת משיחו של ישראל ומושיעו של כל העולם

Reb Chaim HaQoton said...

I might respond to this at a later time, perhaps after the holidays when I am more available to engage in this sort of נערישקייט.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

The two Shroud videos if you change your mind about seeing them are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJPJ4JwHeE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9cuRxN4Ug

God Bless You with His Stupendous & Supernatural Truth!

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

אני מבין שאתה מפחד מהאמת

שב בסוכתך ותתבונן על דבר יהוה שנתבשר וישכון בתוכינו

Reb Chaim HaQoton said...

Thanks for taunting me. I appreciate it.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

I am NOT taunting you.

I was afraid too when I first seriously considered the claims of the New Testament about Yeshua. I remember my body trembling at the outrageous claims made about Him and stated by Him.

As Oxford Professor C S Lewis said:

Jesus was not a "good man."

Either he was telling the Truth and He is God in the flesh, or he was a liar or lunatic.

But don't patronize us by telling us He was a nice man and good rabbi!

May God have mercy on our souls and save our world from its rapid disintegration into darkness and chaos.

Amen

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

And if anything I am more afraid of Him now then back then in 2000.

Jesus is truly frightening. As is the very idea of intimately knowing God and being known by Him.

God Bless You

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

Another personal reference.

David Olesker was a close friend while I was at Ohr Samayach.

While he totally rejects my conversion to Christianity, I think he will be honest enough to attest to my achievements and overall commitment to Judaism while I was at Ohr Samayach!

http://jccat.org/

Tel: +972-2-651-2610

Fax: +972-2-652-4968

E-mail: jccat@iname.com

Address:
POB 2534
Jerusalem 91024
Israel

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

תודה רבה על פירסומי ניסא

PloniAlmoni said...

Stay away from this guy Menachem Mevashir/Michael Korn. He is a complete whackjob who is not worth your intellectual energy in arguing with. He is simply crazy.

Just check out these discussion which he was involved in which give you a true picture of who he is:
http://simplyjews.blogspot.co.il/2009/02/dialog-with-anti-zionist.html

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/09/korn/

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/a-bad-apple-doesnt-fall-far-from-the-tree/

PloniAlmoni said...

Oh, and this one: http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/12/10/the-less-jewish-you-are-according-to-halacha-the-more-rights-you-have-to-aliyah-if-you-are-messianic/

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

כל מה שכתבתי על אתרים האלה אמת לאמיתו כי פי וידי מוקדשים רק לדבר ולהכריז אמת יהוה ובנו הנעלה ונשגב

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

התפללתי ונכספתי שנים שתמונת החלפתי לבריאה חדשה בישוע תתפרסם בעולם היהודי אז רבות ברכות לכם.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

Please be sure to see the comments at the end of the article:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/09/korn/comment-page-1/#comment-484250

mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 10:46 pm

@Irishcream:

Why don’t you ask the survivors themselves if they would rather have been in Auschwitz or in Dresden. As a believer in the bible, I can suggest that were they not being abused in Auschwitz then Dresden would still be standing.

“Paid and treated fairly well under the circumstances?” That’s a good joke. And what did they use their Auschwitz “salaries” for? Let me guess: to buy suntan lotion for the swimming pool and jewelry when they visited the camp whores? Even Faurisson and Smith concede they were treated horrendously. So please spare us the sanctimonious lies.

The Germans viewed with malice Jews who posed no threat whatsoever to Germany. And as a bible believer we have to understand that Germany saw the fulfillment of Jesus’ words: “In the measure you measure out so it will be measured back to you.”

Jesus also said we are judged by the words that come out of our mouths. So we can temporize all we want that Himmler’s auszuroten didn’t really mean “exterminate” but in the end Germany sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

Should be pretty obvious to a spiritual seeker that you seem to be on your website.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 10:54 pm

The problem as I see it in a nutshell is that Hitler supported Zionism, the Revisionists claim to admire Hitler but oppose Zionism. That’s the absurdity of it all!

When I worked on a kibbutz many years back, I noticed that a lot of their industrial machinery was German made. They received it way back as part of the transfer agreement between the Zionists and the Third Reich.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:00 pm

The Germans sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

They spoke of Jews with contempt and were treated with contempt.

They embittered the lives of Jewish civilians across Europe and their own civilians were bombed mercilessly.

All in all a tragedy for both sides.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:01 pm

In brief, the Germans were judged by Jesus’ own words:

In the measure you measure out so it will be measured back to you.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:05 pm

I thought from my own studies of the history leading up through both world wars and also from allusions to Hitler in the bible codes that Hitler was at least an unwitting Zionist agent. Now if your claim that he was a deliberate instrument of Zionist policy is true, then why do the Revisionists revile Israel? That seems to contradict everything Hitler strove for to remove the Jews from Europe and relocate them elsewhere. Do you see my point?

Also we can see that the aggressive policies of Israel, along with its racialist intolerance of the Palestinian natives, dovetails perfectly with German National Socialism’s blood and land ideology. So I would expect true Revisionists to “go all the way” and support Israel as the fulfillment of Hitlers’ legacy.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:08 pm

The Germans viewed with malice Jews who posed no threat whatsoever to Germany. And as a bible believer we have to understand that Germany saw the fulfillment of Jesus’ words: “In the measure you measure out so it will be measured back to you.”


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:09 pm

We can temporize all we want that Himmler’s ausroten didn’t really mean “exterminate” but in the end Germany sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. Should be pretty obvious to a spiritual seeker that you seem to be on your website.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

Also these:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/09/korn/comment-page-1/#comment-484214

mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 6:55 pm

This argument is truly absurd AND REPUGNANT to all thinking and moral people.

Even if Hitler had legitimate grievances against the Jewish Bolsheviks in the USSR and the Jewish financiers in the West, what reason did he have to incarcerate ALL Jewish civilians throughout Nazi occupied Europe? What threat were Dutch Jewish shopkeepers and French Jewish professors and Italian Jewish jewelers to the German people?

Even the Catholic Church in its heyday of forcing Jews to live in ghettos never stooped to the malice of compelling them into forced concentration camp labor.

So in my opinion it is impossible to reconstruct Hitler’s reputation in a way that will appeal to Westerners. The best you can aim for is to show why he appealed to Germans, which is what I have tried to do.

America is a Jewish paradise, and they will use their formidable power to thwart any effort on the part of Revisionists to rehabilitate Hitler’s reputation.



mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 10:34 pm

@ChrisNaziass:

Read Auschwitz by Laurence Rees. Then get back to me. Better yet build a time machine and take yourself back in time to that workers’ paradise. And spend a few years there and then report back to us. Don’t forget to take along a home video camera so you can film all the fun times to be had there.


mevashir
May 10, 2013 - 11:15 pm

@Chris: “Last Tuesday the World Jewish Congress passed a resolution calling for worldwide laws against Holocaust Denial.”

Look at it like this. Suppose you showed up at the local emergency room covered with burn marks and with broken limbs and signs of sexual abuse. Your father’s semen was swabbed off of you and other forensic evidence pointed to your father as the abuser.

Then after the police report is filed the court rules that your father is innocent and you are returned to his custody. And night after night people insist that your screams are screams of pleasure not pain.

How would you feel? I suppose burning with anger shame and malice.

That’s because you don’t like it when people deny your suffering and mock it.

Call yourself a Revisionist, but not a Denier. No one has a right to “deny” the historical humiliation of others.

Shir Mevashir Yeshua said...

rabbi Chaim Qoton = רחק

St. Paul says God is not "rachok" but very near to us, especially this time of year:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:5-13&version=MSG

Romans 10:5-13 The Message (MSG)

4-10 The earlier revelation was intended simply to get us ready for the Messiah, who then puts everything right for those who trust him to do it. Moses wrote that anyone who insists on using the law code to live right before God soon discovers it’s not so easy—every detail of life regulated by fine print! But trusting God to shape the right living in us is a different story—no precarious climb up to heaven to recruit the Messiah, no dangerous descent into hell to rescue the Messiah. So what exactly was Moses saying?

The word that saves is right here,
as near as the tongue in your mouth,
as close as the heart in your chest.

It’s the word of faith that welcomes God to go to work and set things right for us. This is the core of our preaching. Say the welcoming word to God—“Jesus is my Master”—embracing, body and soul, God’s work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead. That’s it. You’re not “doing” anything; you’re simply calling out to God, trusting him to do it for you. That’s salvation. With your whole being you embrace God setting things right, and then you say it, right out loud: “God has set everything right between him and me!”

11-13 Scripture reassures us, “No one who trusts God like this—heart and soul—will ever regret it.” It’s exactly the same no matter what a person’s religious background may be: the same God for all of us, acting the same incredibly generous way to everyone who calls out for help. “Everyone who calls, ‘Help, God!’ gets help.”

Reb Chaim HaQoton said...

רחק is actually a רמז to the fact that I am far away from sin.

PloniAlmoni said...

Don't expect him to respond to your newest rebuttal. I think you finally showed him that he has nothing to stand on.

Menachem Mevashir said...

"Actually, I don’t agree with what you wrote. You write that separating from his wife was necessary for him to attain the highest level of spirituality in order to redeem his people from bondage, but that is simply not true. In fact, Moses only separated from his wife after he had already led the Jews on their Exodus from Egypt and only after he served as the main conduit of HaShem’s will at the Revelation at Mount Sinai, not beforehand. His so-called “celibacy” was not necessary for him to reach his level, it was an outcome of the fact that he had reached his high level like I have already explained to you in my previous post."

This appears to be in error. Moses in fact never cohabitated with his wife starting at the time of the Burning Bush revelation, as rabbi Nathan of Breslov makes clear.

The reason that God commanded him explicitly after Mt Sinai to separate from his wife is because this was the first time since he left Midian that she was available to him.

I am rather surprised you missed this.

Reb Chaim HaQoton said...

I have to accept everything that some Hassidic "master" claims?

Menachem Mevashir said...

No, you don't have to accept anything anyone says. You are free to walk in your own opinions.

But if you examine Scripture you will see that Rabbi Nathan is correct. From the Burning Bush revelation until Yitro brought Tzippora with him into Sinai, Moses had no opportunity to cohabit with his wife.

The command "shal naalecha mayal raglecha" alludes to the necessity of Moses to be completely poresh from his wife in order to attain the holiness necessary to lead Israel out of Egyptian bondage.

Menachem Mevashir said...

No, you don't have to accept anything anyone says. You are free to walk in your own delusions.

But if you examine Scripture you will see that Rabbi Nathan is correct. From the Burning Bush revelation until Yitro brought Tzippora with him into Sinai, Moses had no opportunity to cohabit with his wife.

The command "shal naalecha mayal raglecha" alludes to the necessity of Moses to be completely poresh from his wife in order to attain the holiness necessary to lead Israel out of Egyptian bondage.

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